Pets in Cargo Hold
January 7th, 2009 Filed Under naaktbelgisch.com edit
We're travelling from YYZ to YWG with our 45 lb. springer spaniel. I just got off the phone with a reservations agent who was less than clear.
First she said no pets would be allowed in the A319 or A320 because the holds aren't heated...these are the only AC that do YYZ-YWG.
Then she said they may take the dog if we sign a waiver of responsibility, but I'd have to make the reservation and then they would send the request to Cargo for approval. We've travelled with her in the winter before, and it seems to me they always warn us that it might get a little chilly in the hold, but this is the first indication I've had that they might refuse to take her.
For what it's worth, the website says that they won't take toy dogs, puppies or kittens in the A319, A320, or A321 hold between November 1st and March 31st or anytime the temperature is below zero.
Are there any cargo-types out there who know just how cold it might get in the hold and whether there's any reason we should worry about (a) whether they will accept her, and (b) whether she will make it alive?
Many thanks.
You need an airline-approved kennel, which means that the kennel is reasonably durable (ie. not wood), leak-proof, and that animal cannot stick a paw out of the kennel and anything that might get loose inside the cargo hold cannot get into the kennel. A wire-mesh kennel is not okay. Most plastic ones they sell in pet stores are fine.
Price for a dog is around 304 dollars on a 23 kilos dog and goes by dimensions on the kennel. This is thinking that the kennel is 31 ong 30 height and 26 wide.
Rules are that dog must be able to stand up inside the kennel and turn around,no wheels,no opening on the roof of the kennel and the kennel must made either of hard plastic assemble with bolt and nuts no plastic or hardwood.
If any of this things are not comply ,they will not accepted.
Another thing ..if there are too many dogs on that flight and they have to bump one ...cargo is bump first.
I hope this helps
You book a flight for the cargo shipment, the same way you would book a seat for yourself. You will know exactly which flight your pets are on. You can book them on your flight if you want. The old 737s used to be to hold a maximum of 3 kennels, so there shouldn't be a problem shipping 3 kennels on the larger aircraft used between YYZ-YVR.
You need to sign a waiver saying the pets are in good health. You do not need any supporting documentation.
As a former ramp rat at YHZ, I can tell you definitively that the bulkhold of the A320 is seperated from the rear container hold by a nylon sheet (if that).
I'm not a physics major, but if you have 4 130 sq ft aluminum containers in close proximity to your animal that most likely have been "chilling out" on the ramp in sub-zero temps for up to 3 hours, that's akin to packing Fido in a Coleman cooler full of chemical icepacks. As such, the common hold will be inherently harder to heat than in the summer, when the containers would be warm (if not hot).
In the case of the A321, Rover is back there with 5 cold containers, and in the case of the A319, Fido is packed along with passenger bags and cargo that may have been "chilling out" for 6+ hours... Brrrr!
Anyone more versed in the laws of heat transfer care to weigh in?
(Edited for spelling)
[This message has been edited by YYZC2 (edited 11-10-2003).]
It occurs to me that you are asking about shipping the dog as baggage, and I answered your question in the context of shipping your dog as cargo. Whole different ballgame. Let me explain.
The regulations that govern AC's liability in terms of baggage are differ greatly than those that cover cargo shipments. There really is no effective mechanism in the baggage regs to deal with high value or fragile / perishable shipments, which is why you are basically out of luck if AC smashes Grandma's fine china if it was in your luggage, or if AC loses your bag and it had $100,000 of camera equipment in it. Baggage is meant to transport clothing and personal effects, and the limits of reimbursement in the event of loss or accident reflect that. If you have third-party insurance on your stuff, then bully for you, but AC will not generally be on the hook for it. Airline baggage systems are rough-and-tumble areas. Dogs really don't belong there...
The IATA air cargo regs, on the other hand, are far more robust when it comes to specifying and assigning liability for air shipments. If you declare Granny's china at $10,000, have the documentation to prove it, declare the value of the goods and pay the excess valuation surcharge at the time of shipping, AC will be on the hook for the entire value of the china if it loses or destroys the goods through accident or negligence.
OK, I'm getting away from myself, so here is my point: I can see you having trouble showing up at the airport with Fido and announcing that some guy on the internet assured you he would be accepted. I'm not sure the airport agents have an equivalent document to the cargo department's AVI liability waiver. That legalese on the back of your baggage tag refers mainly to fragile goods or perishable food, and the agents may be hesitant to accept the dog lest they get in $#!t with their management. Also, I don't think that the baggage guys have a separate system for dealing with live animals... they are essentially just another suitcase down below T2. You are basically "trusting" AC to keep an eye on Fido while he traverses YYZ's labyrinthine baggage system... things get lost at YYZ at the best of times. During the holidays... well http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/frown.gif
Now if you ship the dog as cargo, like I said, the cargo guys have the resources to give Fido the special service he needs. I can guarantee you Fido will be toasty warm and accounted for right up until flight time, and immediately after arrival.
Yes, there will be a seperate charge for Fido's shipment. Yes, you will have to make a trip to the cargo buildings in YYZ and YWG, but you will have peace of mind.
If you need any more info, please let me know. I still have some friends at YYZ I can get to answer the technical stuff.
[This message has been edited by YYZC2 (edited 11-11-2003).]
If the hold is unheated, at 30,000 feet Fido will turn into a popsicle even in the middle of summer. It's cold way up there....isn't it?
MCM.
It does not happen very offen but.. it could happen so do not snap if this happen but is better have 5 animals arriving together alive and a extra coming on the next flight than 6 dead animals.
There are only certain amount of oxygen and depending on the animal flying on that fly sometimes animals get move to other flights and you can book no more than 2 weeks in advance.
For kennels ...sometimes the so call AIRLINE APROVED that the pet stores sell are not the ones required and you may be force to buy them from US I work for Cargo Ac in yvr ...
The rules are.
Metal bolts for the kennel,no wheels ,no opening on the roof of the kennel,the dog or cat must be able to stand up on the kennel it does not matter if the cat is crouching all the time..does is not the point.. we have to follow does rules since IATA will fine us if we dont follow does rules.
If you want give me a fax number and i send you the rules and regulations.
One more think we charge on the dimension of the kennel no the actual weight of the animal so if the kennel is too big for the cat you may over pay.
I hope this help.
Hmmmm......Since you pay by container size, I could put the dog and cats in the same container. Then if the dog ate the cats, that might save a little weight, too.... :D
Even when AC cancelled a flight from MSP-YYZ where I was shipping 2 crates, did they come through with flying colours and put us on a US flight through PHL (NW refused to fly animals, still do).
If you know the date you are travelling, call now to get the exact flight info. Yes charges are by kennel size, not necessarily the weight of the pet.
It's been over a year since I dealt with live animal shipments with any regularity, and AC overhauled their Live Animal (AVI) product offering in March, so my info may be a little off, but I'll tell you what I know.
AFAIK, it's not that the Airbus bulkholds aren't heated; the problem is that the temperature can be highly variable in the winter due to the heating system works.
(The following is anecdotal)
I have been told that Boeing's heating system is more sensitive and "proactive", maintaining a near-constant temperature, where the Airbii have kind of a "reactive" mechanism like an old mercury thermostat where it only kicks in after the temperature sensors detect that the ambient temperature has dropped below a certain level. Given the lag time between then and the actual delivery of heat, the temperature can get pretty cold for short periods of time. How cold? For how long? I'm not sure.
(The following is empirical)
I have never seen an AC employee refuse a live animal shipment at the point of tender. If you absolutely insist that Fifi must get to YWG, and you will sign the liability waiver, I think AC will take him/her. If I was the accepting agent, I would try and counsel you not to if I felt that the animal was in danger, but I would accept it if you absolved me / AC of liability.
The dog is transported directly to the aircraft in a dedicated heated van as close to departure time as possible, so there should be no worries about exposure to the elements on the ground. Your only real worry is the hold temperature.
YYZ-YWG is what, 2 hours 30 minutes? Your dog is 45 lbs and in good health? I'd say you're probably OK.
Here's the thing about the YYZ Cargo call centre... I love the guys that work there, but it's pretty hit or miss with the info you get out of there. In their defense, their reference material is often out of date and it's d*mn hard to keep up with the latest rules and regs.
However, there should be a dedicated Live Animal Agent on duty at least from 8-4 Monday to Friday. I don't remember the extension, but the main YYZ cargo switchboard number is 905-694-5300. If you don't punch in an extension, you will be directed to the call center. Ask for the "Live Guy" or the "AVI Agent". When I was there last year, the AVI guys were Rob and Nigel. Good guys. They really know their stuff. With the upheaval at AC lately, there may be new bums in those seats. But at a minimum, they should have AVI-specific training.
If you absolutely, positively can't get a straight answer out of anyone (and that is a distinct possibility given the staffing mess over there) call Nancy Guest at 905-694-5387. She is in charge of AC's AVI program systemwide.
Hope that helps. Sorry I couldn't be more certain but I don't want to be responsible for turning Fido into a Popsicle!
I doubt they will let you travel in the cargo hold.
Biggles.
We've done YYZ-YWG or YUL-YWG with her about 5 times as baggage, summer, fall and winter, and there's never been a problem. I posted the original question because it's been a while since we've used AC (last year it was Jetsgo--eek!), and the reservations agent was less than clear. Haven't seen anything here that would cause me any significant worry.
The dog is from Manitoba, is hairy, hearty, and spends half the day outside, regardless of weather. She's also been known to take a dip in Lake Winnipeg in April and Lake Ontario in February (I know, I'm a horrible father), so I think she'll be fine.
Thanks again.
[This message has been edited by RevvedUp (edited November 11, 2003).]
The best AC has to offer again shines through.
Lee Carney, whatever you do, do NOT subject them to a 767, if you do,. you will reported to the SPCA upon arrival in YVR
Good thing it's Friday, sort of.
Lee Carney, whatever you do, do NOT subject them to a 767, if you do,. you will reported to the SPCA upon arrival in YVR
Thanks for the laugh, Taupo. Fortunately, I doubt that my pets expect to be pampered in an International J cargo hold, so if the flight is downgraded to a 762, I suspect they won't be too upset!!! :D
If you have any other questions about traveling with your pets, feel free to ask.
Cargo charges are calculated first by weight and the 'dimensionilzed'. The higher of the two is the charge that you pay.
They used to say that the temperature could get below 2 degrees Celcius at times. I'm not sure when that might happen: when the plane is one the ground (before the engines start or during extended delays perhaps?) or flying. The statement about toy-sized dogs and kittens on the web page is new, so perhaps they've had trouble with very small animals.
The reservations agents have also told me about this waiver (more than once), but I have never actually seen it nevermind signed it at the airport.
FWIW, CP used to ship animals as cargo in the winter on their A320s and they never mentioned anything about problems with the cold.
[This message has been edited by StuMcIlwain (edited 11-10-2003).]
The problem comes in the Canadian winter not because the cargo hold gets cold while in the air [where outside temps acn get down to -70c] but while the aircraft is on the ground and the cargo door is open. There is no air circulation in cargo holds and therefore there is only the proximity to warmer ares to heat the air to normal room temperatures. The cargo hold will stay pretty close to outdoor ground temperatures for the duration of the flight. There is no air circulation for the reason that it helps suppress a fire should it start while the aircraft is enroute.
You the dog owner has to be responsible and ask yourself if you would leave your pooch sitting on your doorstep for 2.5 to 3 hours when the outside temperature is -20c.
If your dog is an outdoor dog and is used to being outside in the cold for many hours at a time, there should not be a problem. But if this is a lap-mutt who goes outdoors to pee and then runs back inside, it is probably not a good idea.
By the way, there is a bigger problem in the summer in hotter climates when temperatures are hot and there is no circulation. Just like leaving your dog in a car on a hot day and the animal dies of heat stroke and/or dehydration.
I've been told by two different people that it's very likely my pets won't travel on the same flight. Any idea if the animals are typically put on a flight that leaves earlier or later than their owners do? Will I know what flight they are on, or do they do the pet equivalent of going stand-by? And any guess how long it takes for the animals to get from the plane (once it lands of course) to the cargo terminal and are ready for pick-up?
Secondly, we were told that we should bring "whatever you have" by way of paperwork on the animals. Our dog has his vaccinations (i.e. rabies, etc), but our cats don't. Does AC require cats to have proof of vaccination?
Thanks in advance...
Huh?
When you call AC to make a booking for your pets, the reservation agent should be able to confirm exact flights at your convenience. As long as you show up 2 hours prior to flight time to tender them, your pets should travel as booked. Pre-booking is recommended for all live cargo.
You should allow at least an hour after the flight's arrival at YVR for pickup at the cargo terminal.
Domestic animals travelling domestically require no health documentation that I know of.
The info you were given is just bizarre, but not uncommon, I'm afraid. At AC, the baggage agent and cargo agent seniority list is combined, so there is much employee bumping between the two departments. The guy who is booking hazmat on your flight today might have been spent the last ten years rerouting hockey equipment...
By the looks of the info you were given, I think you encountered an agent who (a) doesn't have a clue what they are talking about and (b) doesn't want to admit it. By giving deliberately vague answers, they avoid being called out on it.
If I sound a little peeved, I am; I ran into a senior employee of a major freight forwarder and a former frequent client of AC Cargo who was decrying the decline of service at AC... it is now his carrier of last resort. This from a former AC booster extraordinaire...
Call back or PM me and I'll put you in touch with someone who can help you.
I've been told by two different people that it's very likely my pets won't travel on the same flight. Any idea if the animals are typically put on a flight that leaves earlier or later than their owners do? Will I know what flight they are on, or do they do the pet equivalent of going stand-by? And any guess how long it takes for the animals to get from the plane (once it lands of course) to the cargo terminal and are ready for pick-up?
Secondly, we were told that we should bring "whatever you have" by way of paperwork on the animals. Our dog has his vaccinations (i.e. rabies, etc), but our cats don't. Does AC require cats to have proof of vaccination?
Thanks in advance...
^ ^
Get the dog on the Atkins diet quickly.
Now you have me thinking about something else I was told - namely that we had to wait to book the pets until about a week before the flight. Is that true, or can I call anytime and make the reservation?
One last question, if you don't mind - late last year in this thread, it was mentioned that plastic crates are required for the animals, and that wood crates are not allowed. What about metal crates - are they OK?
Thanks again for the help and info!
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